Indus Valley Civilisation: The Genesis of Pakistan!

A sculpted object from the ancient city of Mohenjo-Daro, now placed in the Karachi Museum.



by Shanti Menon


The link for railway from Lahore to Multan in Pakistan is 4,600 years old. In truth, the rails were laid down in the middle of the nineteenth century, but to build the railway bed, British engineers smashed bricks from crumbling buildings and rubble heaps in a town called Harappa, halfway between the two cities. Back in 1856, Alexander Cunningham, director of the newly formed Archeological Survey of British India, thought the brick ruins were all related to nearby seventh-century Buddhist temples. Local legend told a different story: the brick mounds were the remnants of an ancient city, destroyed when its king committed incest with his niece. Neither Cunningham nor the locals were entirely correct. In small, desultory excavations a few years later, Cunningham found no temples or traces of kings, incestuous or otherwise. Instead he reported the recovery of some pottery, carved shell, and a badly damaged seal depicting a one-horned animal, bearing an inscription in an unfamiliar writing.

That seal was a mark of one of the world’s great ancient civilizations, but mid-nineteenth-century archaeologists like Cunningham knew nothing about it. The Vedas, the oldest texts of south Asia, dating from some 3,500 years ago, made no mention of it, nor did the Bible. No pyramids or burial mounds marked the area as the site of an ancient power. Yet, 4,600 years ago, at the same time as the early civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, great cities arose along the flood plains of the ancient Indus and Saraswati rivers in what is now Pakistan and northwest India.

The people of the Indus Valley didn’t build towering monuments, bury their riches along with their dead, or fight legendary and bloody battles. They didn’t have a mighty army or a divine emperor. Yet they were a highly organized and stupendously successful civilization. They built some of the world’s first planned cities, created one of the world’s first written languages, and thrived in an area twice the size of Egypt and Mesopotamia for 700 years.

To archeologists of this century and last, Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, a neighboring city some 350 miles to the southwest, posed an interesting, if unglamorous puzzle. Excavations revealed large, orderly walled cities of massive brick buildings, with highly sophisticated sanitation and drainage systems and a drab, institutional feel. The streets of Harappa, remarked British archeologist Mortimer Wheeler, “however impressive quantitatively, and significant sociologically, are aesthetically miles of monotony.”

The archeologist and popular author Leonard Cottrell, a contemporary of Wheeler’s, wrote in 1956, “While admiring the efficiency of Harappan planning and sanitary engineering, one’s general impression of Harappan culture is unattractive… One imagines those warrens of streets, baking under the fierce sun of the Punjab, as human ant heaps, full of disciplined, energetic activity, supervised and controlled by a powerful, centralized state machine; a civilization in which there was little joy, much labor, and a strong emphasis on material things.”


Indus Valley cities lay along major trade routes.

Superior plumbing and uniform housing, no matter how well designed, don’t fire the imagination like ziggurats and gold-laden tombs. “But there’s more to society than big temples and golden burials,” argues Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, an archeologist at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. “Those are the worst things that ancient societies did, because they led to their collapse. When you take gold and put it in ground, it’s bad for the economy. When you waste money on huge monuments instead of shipping, it’s bad for the economy. The Indus Valley started out with a very different basis and made South Asia the center of economic interactions in the ancient world.”

Kenoyer has been excavating at Harappa for the past 12 years. His work, and that of his colleagues, is changing the image of Harappa from a stark, state-run city into a vibrant, diverse metropolis, teeming with artisans and well-traveled merchants.

“What we’re finding at Harappa, for the first time,” says Kenoyer, “is how the first cities started.” Mesopotamian texts suggest that cities sprang up around deities and their temples, and once archeologists found these temples, they didn’t look much further. “People assumed this is how cities evolved, but we don’t know that for a fact,” says Kenoyer. At Harappa, a temple of the glitzy Mesopotamian variety has yet to be found. Kenoyer’s archeological evidence suggests that the city got its start as a farming village around 3300 B.C. Situated near the Ravi River, one of several tributaries of the ancient Indus River system of Pakistan and northwestern India, Harappa lay on a fertile flood plain. Good land and a reliable food supply allowed the village to thrive, but the key to urbanization was its location at the crossroads of several major trading routes.

Traders from the highlands of Baluchistan and northern Afghanistan to the west brought in copper, tin and lapis lazuli; clam and conch shells were brought from the southwestern seacoast, timber from the Himalayas, semiprecious stones from Gujrat, silver and gold from Central Asia. The influx of goods allowed Harappans to become traders and artisans as well as farmers. And specialists from across the land arrived to set up shop in the new metropolis.

The city had room to expand and an entrepreneurial spirit driven by access to several sources of raw materials. “You had two sources of lapis, three of copper, and several of shell,” says Kenoyer. “The way I envision it, if you had entrepreneurial go-get-’em, and you had a new resource, you could make a million in Harappa. It was mercantile base for rapid growth and expansion.” Enterprising Harappan traders exported finely crafted Indus Valley products to Mesopotamia, Iran, and Central Asia and brought back payment in precious metals and more raw materials.

By 2200 B.C., Harappa covered about 370 acres and may have held 80,000 people, making it roughly as populous as the ancient city of Ur in Mesopotamia. And it soon had plenty of neighbors. Over the course of 700 years, some 1,500 Indus Valley settlements were scattered over 280,000 square miles of the northwestern subcontinent.

Unlike the haphazard arrangement of Mesopotamian cities, Indus Valley settlements all followed the same basic plan. Streets and houses were laid out on a north-south, east-west grid, and houses and walls were built of standard-size bricks. Even early agricultural settlements were constructed on a grid. “People had a ritual conception of the universe, of universal order,” says Kenoyer. “The Indus cities and earlier villages reflect that.” This organization, he believes, could have helped the growing city avoid conflicts, giving newcomers their own space rather than leaving them to elbow their way into established territories.

Part of that ritual conception included a devotion to sanitation. Nearly every Harappan home had a bathing platform and a latrine, says Kenoyer, and some Indus Valley cities reached heights of 40 feet in part because of concern about hygiene. Cities often grow upon their foundations over time, but in the Indus Valley, homes were also periodically elevated to avoid the risk of runoff from a neighbor’s sewage. “It’s keeping up with the Joneses’ bathroom,” he quips, “that made these cities rise so high so quickly.” Each neighborhood had its own well, and elaborate covered drainage systems carried dirty water outside the city. By contrast, city dwellers in Mesopotamian cities tended to draw water from the river or irrigation canals and they had no drains.

The towering brick cities, surrounded by sturdy walls with imposing gateways, reminded early researchers of the medieval forts in Lahore and Delhi. But Kenoyer points out that a single wall, with no moat and with no sudden turns to lead enemies into ambush, would have been ill-suited for defense. He thinks the walls were created to control the flow of goods in and out of the city. At Harappa, standardized cubical stone weights have been found at the gates, and Kenoyer suggests they were used to levy taxes on trade goods coming into the city.

The main gateway at Harappa is nine feet across, just wide enough to allow one oxcart in or out. “If you were a trader,” he explains, “you wanted to bring goods into a city to trade in a safe place, so bandits wouldn’t rip you off. To get into the city, you had to pay a tax. If you produced things, you had to pay a tax to take goods out of the city. This is how a city gets revenues.”

The identity of the tax collectors and those they served remains a mystery. Unlike the rulers of Mesopotamia and Egypt, Indus Valley rulers did not immortalize themselves with mummies or monuments. They did, however, leave behind elaborately carved stone seals, used to impress tokens or clay tabs on goods bound for market. The seals bore images of animals, like the humped bull, the elephant, the rhinoceros, and the crocodile, which were probably emblems of powerful clans. The most common image is the unicorn, a symbol that originated in the Indus Valley.

Frustratingly, though, those seals carry inscriptions that no one has been able to decipher. Not only are the inscriptions short, but they don’t resemble any known language. From analyzing overlapping strokes, it is clear that the script reads right to left. It is also clear that the script is a mix of phonetic symbols and pictographs. Early Mesopotamian cuneiform, which used only pictographs, was thought to be the world’s first written language, says Kenoyer, but the Indus Valley script emerged independently around the same time — at least by around 3300 B.C.

As long as the language remains a mystery, so too will the identities of the Indus Valley elites. Kenoyer thinks each of the large cities may have functioned as an independent city-state, controlled by a small group of merchants, landowners, and religious leaders. “They controlled taxation, access to the city, and communication with the gods,” he says. While the balance of power may have shifted between these groups, they seem to have ruled without a standing army. Sculptures, paintings, and texts from Egypt and Mesopotamia clearly illustrate battles between cities and pharaonic wars of conquest. But in the Indus Valley, not a single depiction of a military act, of taking prisoners, of a human killing another human has been found. It’s possible these acts were illustrated on cloth or paper or some other perishable and simply did not survive. Yet none of the cities show signs of battle damage to buildings or city walls, and very few weapons have been recovered.

Human remains show no signs of violence either. Only a few cemeteries have been found, suggesting that burial of the dead may have been limited to high ranking individuals (others may have been disposed of through cremation or river burials). The bones from excavated burials show few signs of disease or malnourishment. Preliminary genetic studies from a cemetery in Harappa have suggested that women were buried near their mothers and grandmothers. Men do not seem to be related to those near them, so they were probably buried with their wives’ families. There is evidence that people believed in afterlife: personal items like amulets and simple pottery have been recovered from a few burials. But true to their practical, businesslike nature, the Harappans didn’t bury their dead with riches. Unlike the elites of the Near East, Harappans kept their valuable items in circulation, trading for new, often extraordinary ornaments for themselves and their descendents.

In spite of this practice, excavators have turned up some hints of the wealth an individual could accumulate. Two decades ago, in the rural settlement of Allahdino, near modern Karachi in Pakistan, archeologists stumbled upon a buried pot filled with jewelry, the secret hoard of a rich landowner. Among the silver and gold bands, beads, and rings was a belt or necklace made of 36 elongated carnelian beads interspersed with bronze beads. Shaping and drilling these long, slender beads out of hard stone is immensely difficult and time-consuming. Indus craftsmen made a special drill for this purpose by heating a rare metamorphic rock to create a superhard material. Even these high-tech drills could perforate carnelian at a rate of only a hundredth of an inch per hour. Kenoyer estimates that a large carnelian belt like the one at Allahdino would have taken a single person 480 working days to complete. It was most likely made by a group of artisans over a period of two or three years.

Such intensive devotion to craftsmanship and trade, Kenoyer argues, is what allowed Indus Valley culture to spread over a region twice the size of Mesopotamia without the trace of military domination. Just as American culture is currently exported along with goods and media, so too were the seals, pottery styles, and script of the Indus Valley spread among the local settlements.

Figurines from the Indus Valley also testify to a complex social fabric. People within the same city often wore different styles of dress and hair, a practice that could reflect differences in ethnicity or status. Men are shown with long hair or short, bearded or clean-shaven. Women’s hairstyles could be as simple as one long braid, or complex convolutions of tresses piled high on a supporting structure.

Eventually, between 1900 and 1700 B.C., the extensive trading networks and productive farms supporting this cultural integration collapsed, says Kenoyer, and distinct local cultures emerged. “They stopped writing,” he says. “They stopped using the weight system for taxation. And the unicorn motif disappeared.” Speculation as to the reasons for the disintegration has ranged from warfare to weather. Early archeologists believed that Indo-Aryan invaders from the north swept through and conquered the peaceful Harappans, but that theory has since been disputed. Most of the major cities don’t show evidence of warfare, though some smaller settlements appear to have been abandoned. There is evidence that the Indus river shifted, flooding many settlements and disrupting agriculture. It is likely that when these smaller settlements were abandoned, trade routes were affected. In the Ganges river valley to the east, on the outskirts of the Indus Valley sphere of influence, the newly settled Indo-Aryans, with their own customs, grew to prominence while cities like Harappa faded.

But the legacy of the ancient Indus cities and their craftspeople remains. The bead makers of the region continue to make beads based on Harappan techniques — though carnelian is now bored with diamond-tipped drills. Shell workers still make bangles out of conch shells. And in the crowded marketplaces, as merchants hawk the superiority of their silver over the low-quality ore of their neighbors, as gold and jewels are weighed in bronze balances, it’s hard to imagine that a 4,000-year-old Harappan bazaar could have been terribly different.


[Note for WoP readers: This post precedes our earlier article titled “Boring No More”, the Indus Valley Civilisation, put up on 20th Feb. 2009. Due to paucity of space it wasn’t inserted then, and therefore is being uploaded now].



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43 replies to “Indus Valley Civilisation: The Genesis of Pakistan!

  1. Whatever happened in Bamiyan was something which we in Pakistan didn’t appreciate then nor we do it now.

    Secondly the socio-cultural streams in Pakistan are much different and stronger than they are in Afghanistan. And we are very proud of our heritage.

    If at all such tragedy may hit us, that will be our cultural Armageddon.

  2. What is the solution to the problem posed in the
    article? The only way is to dig more and more and more.
    Please dig up all prominent sites, like Ganweriwala,
    Shorkot and many others in Pakistan.Why not ask for
    help from India? I am willing to co-sponsor some dig.
    It is frustrating to read and re-read the same thing
    again and again.

  3. it is frustrating to read and reread the same
    thing again and again. Why cannot more digging be
    done to find a solution to the script problem?

    1. I appreciate your comments and welcome your proposal.
      Objective of reprinting essays on topical interests including this one, is to create awareness amongst our readers on the archeological / heritage sites of Pakistan.
      In addition to this particular essay, we have put up many other posts on the Indus Valley in our different issues. They include some original pieces as well.

  4. I’ve published a paper on the subject, its titled, ‘The Reconfirmation and Reinforcement of the Indus Script Thesis’. It was recently published in a scientific journal. The thesis is based on the central theme of: why longer texts certainly existed in the Indus and why the Indus script was logo-syllabic. This is a complete refutation of Farmers thesis and refutes Sproat’s smoking gun completely. Mine is a very comprehensive refutation, and I would welcome if they don’t agree with me; but they should refute all my points convincingly.

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli

  5. This is not the history of Pakistan, its Indus Civilization. Pakistan appeared on the world map in 1947, and the Indus Civilisation is thousands years older than Pakistan.

    1. Mohsin, you are partly correct but partly wrong. Indus Civilisation is no doubt thousands years old, when there was no such country called Pakistan. But the land of Pakistan existed since thousands of years, no matter what name it carried then. Basically it was an Indusland then, its Indusland now and shall remain Indusland forever. Now politically we call it Pakistan. But the roots of our country which is politically now Pakistan, have always been around the Indus delta which encompasses all the five provinces of Pakistan.

  6. The heirs of Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) are the people of Pakistan. IVC has never been an Indian civilization. The landmass of IVC in its over 9000 years of history has remained part of India for limited period only i.e. during Muriyan, Muslim and British Empires. For the remainder periods it has always been an independent entity and was never a part of India.

    An excellent article written by Khan A. Sufyan is a testament to this fact.

    1. Thanx Tinu for your visit to this site and for your most appropriate comment on IVC. I fully agree with you. IVC is the genesis of our motherland called Pakistan. The writings by people like Aitzaz Ahsan (the Indus Saga) and extensive excavations / researches conducted by by late Ahmad Hassan Dani point to this very fact. Professor Dani even proved through various finds in the IVC that Indus people took beef which the Indians being majority Hindus do not eat because they treat cow as a god, that’s the reason they use the name ‘Gaoo Mata’ i.e. Cow Mother.

      As hinted by Khan A. Sufyan in his excellent write up, and findings of Prof. Dani, the seal of a bull along with the hand made statue of a priest found at Harrapa clearly show that the Indus people had some sort of faith that did not debar them to take beef. The Hindu scrpitures like the Vedas appeared much later.

      Though I am as much proud of our Hindu and Sikh heritage (because after all these too are our Pakistani heritage), yet to align the IVC with the Gangetic civilisation is highly erroneous. In fact the word Hindu and India originate from Pakistan’s IVC and these two words have nothing to do with Gangetic Bharat or the Hindus as a faith. India derives from Indus and Hindu from Indu’s. To align IVC with Gangetic Bharat is a misnomer which needs to be discarded once and for all.

  7. Sir, thank you for your response.

    The fact is that the words “Hindu” and “India” have a foreign origin. The word “Hindu” is neither a Sanskrit word nor is this word found in any of the native dialects and languages of India. It should be noted that “Hindu” is not a religious word at all. There is no reference of the word “Hindu” in the ancient Vedic Scriptures.

    It is said that the Persians used to refer to the Indus river as Sindhu. However, the Persians could not pronounce the letter “S” correctly in their native tongue and mispronounced it as “H.” Thus, for the ancient Persians, the word “Sindhu” became “Hindu.” However, it actually meant the River Sindh and did not refer to present day Hindus in any capacity.

    The ancient Persian Cuneiform inscriptions and the Zend Avesta refer to the word “Hindu” as a geographic name rather than a religious name. When the Persian King Darious-1 extended his empire up to the borders of the Indian subcontinent in 517 BC, some people of the Indian subcontinent became part of his empire and army. Thus for a very long time the ancient Persians referred to these people as “Hindus”. The ancient Greeks and Armenians followed the same pronunciation, and thus, gradually the name stuck. And the Greeks called those people living east of River Indus as Indians.

    The word “India” also has a similar foreign origin. Originally, the native Indians used to address the subcontinent as “Bharat”. As a matter of fact in Mahabharat, which is one of the two “Itihasa”, where one finds reference of the word “Bharat”. As per legend, the land ruled by the great King “Bharata” was called Bharat. And as Mahabharata is basically a mythological myth, it does not its moorings in reality and the name thus is surreal.

    The ancient Greeks used to mispronounce the river Sindhu as Indos. When Alexander invaded India, the Macedonian army referred to the river as Indus and the land east of the river as India. The Greek writers who wrote about Alexander preferred to use the same name. And even the Greeks called those people living east of River Indus as Indians.

    For the Arabs the land became Al-Hind. The Muslim rulers and travelers who came to India during the medieval period referred the Indian subcontinent as “Hindustan” and the people who lived there as Hindus. The Turks called it Hindistan and still name it as such.

    The people who lived during the times of Indus Valley and its landmass were called as Melluha by the Mesopotamian people. Therefore, the people of Indus Valley civilization were never Indian.

  8. Sir, let me also comment on your reservations with regard to the genetic format of the people of Indus Valley Civilization. A popular perception was deliberately created by Indian Hindus, particularly after the recent revival of Indian Hindu extremism in India that, because the Indus Valley Civilization fizzled out by 1300 BC, the people also vanished and the current people of Indus valley have no linkages with those who lived earlier. This was a clear attempt to disassociate the people of Pakistan as the heirs of this great civilization.

    Dr. Dani and many others clearly mention this fact that the people of Indus Valley Civilization did not merely vanish but remained settled in the same cities, albeit in smaller numbers and kept on living in the adjoining towns and villages even after fading out of this civilization. And here the importance of recent genetic format gains importance. And I believe, that M. Khan A. Sufyan have probably attempted to clarify this particular aspect. And I do agree with him in this respect.

    And it is a pleasure posting in this wonderful forum.

    1. @Tinu, Thanks for posting link to the article on the Indus Valley Civilisation by Khan A. Sufyan. Irrespective of what our fanatic Mullahs may say and believe, the IVC is the original manifest of a civilised way of life not only in Pakistan, not only in the subcontinent, but also in the whole world. [It is the genesis of present Pakistan].

      Starting from Mehrgarh Civilisation in Balochistan province of Pakistan, it went upto Harrapa and Moenjodaro respectively in Punjab and Sindh provinces of Pakistan. As such any claim by Indians (which again is a misnomer for India actually means Indusland and Indusland then and now has always been the land that covers the vast span of landmass spread around the Indus Delta, not from now, not from 1947 (when an independent sovereign state apeared on the world map) but from many many millenia before.

      Any effort to distort history, the geography and cultural strains in the Valley of Indus is not only malfide but also means distorting historical facts with utter vested interests.

      It should be of interest to you also to have a look over a 4-articles series that we uploaded on our weblog on Mehrgrarh Civilisation which is the mother source of Indus Valey Civilisation and by far is the first and the only civilised settlement by man on surface of our planet earth. Mehrgarh: The Lost Civilisation [in four parts]

  9. Large part of Vedic civilization was also situated in present Pakistan, then why do you Pakistanis don’t claim back that !! Simply because it was Hindu? but Indus valley’s religious side i.e. the Hinduism is well known.
    LoL Pakistanis! don’t try to re-write the history.

    You Pak’s have a habit to respect those who are not Hindus, but Pakistan was CREATED in 1947.

    If you wish then you may start a debate with me.

    Your country is an artificial state.

    1. @Waffen SS, You nick smacks of one of world’s notorious militant organizations, which indicates your mindset, i.e. a racist Hindutwa who doesn’t like Muslims nor the country inhabited by 18 crores of proud, patriotic Pakistanis.

      You are ranting about what every Hindutva extremist would wish to happen but Mr. Waffen SS, Pakistan has existed right from the day the contours of Indus valley civilisation were defined in the Mehrgarh area of Pakistan’s Balochistan province. Later this [the earliest civilisation on the planet earth] drifted towards Harrapa and Moenjodaro.

      Political nomenclature was different then but its original name even then was Indusland and as one of our readers have pointed out in her comment [if you care to read all the relevant comments above], it should then be clear to you that the word Indus was adopted both by the Persians and the Greeks as Hindus as they found it more convenient to call Indus as Hindus. Even the name India is derived from Indus hence your intention to club it with Hinduism is malafide.

      The religion or faith which the Indus valley people had, was neither Hinduism nor Buddhism, it was a faith unique to their time and contrary to Hindu faith IVC inhabitants took beef. The IVC faith and culture was then succeeded by Hinduism, Buddhism and finally by Islam.

      Barring some religious fanatics who believe in Pakistan’s history only from 1947 are few. Most of us know our history, a history which is a testament to our motherland’s status as harbinger of the Indus Valley Civilisation.

      Your rants on calling our motherland as an artificial state reinvigorates our faith in our country more than ever before.

      As far as starting a discussion on your whims is concerned, you better note: we know our history and we don’t need a Hindutva guy to tell us who we are!!!

    2. Republic of India was also created in 1947. Before that it was British India, before that it was Muslim India – what was India called before that and was there an India that existed before the Muslims created India.

  10. Well, I was busy. But the question is why you Pak’s claim Muhammad Bin Quasim as the first Pakistani?? He came into India only in 712 AD, right?

    Indus valley civilization was created around 5000-4000 BC, right, so when you claim Muhammad Bin Qusaim as first Pakistani then how can you say Indus valley civilization was Pakistani??

    Answer this one, can you tell me any paper before 1947, where Pakistan was mentioned as a state except Iqbal’s or Jinnahs Pakistan Movement??
    In Medieval age Delhi Sultans, and Badshahs called themselves as emperor of India. Can you show me any king as Emperor of Pakistan??

    It is not about Hindu or Muslim fanaticism, you Muslims demolished our temples, sacred idols,(Timur killed 100,000 Hindus, Firoz Shah Tughlaq killed Hindu because he only said both Hindu and Muslim religions are good and equal). These historical facts don’t matter today, therefore we forget and forgive. However, its not matter of Hindu Muslim fanaticism, it is a question whether Pakistan had it’s existence before 1947 or not?

    Note my comment, if you want to claim all ancient IVC as Pakistani which had parts of Pakistan, then you have to also claim Hindu (whether the word Hindu then existed or not, their gods and our present gods are same, so in short we can call it Hindu Vedic civilization?? Can you claim a Hindu civilization as Pakistani??

    If you do that then stop claiming Muhammad Bin Quasim as first Pakistani. Indus valley civilization was surely inhabited by the natives of that area, so if the present Pakistanis’ forefathers made this, we don’t know what was their religion, right?? But after that, during Vedic era they accepted Hinduism, later some also accepted Buddhism. If you agree, then stop claiming Mahmud of Gazni, Muhammad Ghuri as great heroes, because most damaged areas were situated in present day Pakistan and that area’s people suffered most. AND they were forcefully converted Islam.

    If you want to take glory on what they did in past, then you have to also feel sad in which time they became the sufferer, I am clear, take pride on IVC as it was done by your forefathers and also feel sad when Muslims from West Asia attacked and robbed your forefathers, can you get my point??
    You can’t share only glorious past of your forefathers, but you have to also remember the bitter history of your forefathers, well, if that, if you can share and understand your forefather’s bitter history, if you have sympathy for them then stop claiming Mahmud of Gazni etc. Muslim fanatics who tortured your forefathers. I hope you understand.

    Now if you ignore your forefathers’ bitter history then it is clear, you got no connection with them and you are immigrants of Arabia or Iran, then you can’t claim IVC.

    We Indians not only take pride about our ancestors’ glorious history, we also are saddened when we talk about the atrocities made on us in past by any FOREIGNERS. For example in 1770 AD, British made man made famine in Bengal killed 10 million people (this 10 million did not only include Hindus but also Muslims).

    MY last words are if you want to accept and claim IVC, then claim all Historical truths happened in present day area of Pakistan, it includes from stone age to the attacks of Mahmud Gazni, from Ghauri to British rule.

    It is connected to Islam or at least it is not ANY HOW connected to Hinduism so we claim this and it is Hindu so we don’t stop this.

    1. Our Islamists do say it was Muhammad bin Qasim who was Pakistani, but factually speaking MBQ was an instruments (though not exclusively) of bringing Islam to the region. But factually speaking Pakistan existed since thousands of years as Indus land and hence coming of MBQ in the subcontinent is one aspect but not the whole story.

      There was no Pakistan before 1947 I agree but the land of Indus that Pakistan is, has existed ever since the start of civilsation not only in this area but in the whole world. As regards your remark in this regard, one of the readers has candidly answered your highly malicious comments on the subject. FYI this is what TINU writes:

      “The Indian Republic is also a creation of 1947. Before that it was British India, before that it was Muslim India – what was India called before that and was there an India that existed before the Muslims created India.”

      Mr. Waffen SS, as I already said, you better read the history first before you drag others into this fruitless discussion. The Mughal Emperors called themselves Shehenshahs of Hindostan and Hindostan again meant land of the Indus. As such they derived their nomenclature again from the land of the Indus which is Pakistan. The Mughals using the name Hindostan was the common nomenclature of the whole subcontinent, so named erroneously by the Persians and the Greeks, hence wrong nomenclating of a geographical entity whether by an emperor or no emperor, does not change the reality, Indus land is historically, geographically and culturally a reality of the genesis of Pakistan.

      You are toeing the same evil concept of Sam Huntington who propounded this neoconic theory on the clash of civilisations.

      Mr. Waffen SS, all what you say in your subsequent comments is something which has the hidden intonations to drag this forum into a useless discussion on Hindus vs Muslims, Pakistan vs India and all that rubbish which is the most favourite subject of religious extremists on this side of the border as well as on the Indian side.

      Since such rants and rasps, remarks, comments and observations stand in direct conflict to the charter of this e-zine i.e. good relations between India and Pakistan and mutual dialogue for an understanding between different faiths in the world, therefore, further gratuitous comments on this forum will come to a close, which please note.

      1. “Our Islamists do say it was Muhammad bin …”

        Jinnah the founder of Pakistan said this at first.Was he Islamist??

        “There was no Pakistan..” Well said mate.But I already CLEARLY told you you do no wrong when you claim IVC as Pakistani,but,but the fact is,you argue IVC was situated in Present Pakistan,so you claim IVC,then again as I already posted in my previous comment then also claim Vedic civilization as Pakistani.
        The problem is youare claiming IVC as Pakistani but you are not claiming Vedic civilization as Pakistani why?try to understand this fact.

        We claim Ajanta-illora(Hindu) as Indian,hell why?Because simply it is situated in India,same time we also claim Tajmahal as Indian simply because it is also situated in India,to claim any ancient great work as Indian at first and last we see where it is situated??If it is in India,then Indian,we dont give a shit about which religion followers made this,we only see whether it is in India or not??
        That’s why though Tajmahal was created by Muslims,we claim simply it is in India,Ajanta-illora is also in India.We give the importance on this in which country the civilization is now in??

        I hope you understand my point.

        “The Mughals using the name Hindostan … of the whole subcontinent” hell no.Indian subcontinent includes present India,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Maldives,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan,Myanmar and Afghanistan.Mughals never ruled Myanmar,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan.It is only sub continent only because there are very close cultural ties between them.

        The areas of Indus valley civilization is surely in present day Pakistan,but,but it has no existence before 1947.
        I already clearly said you what you have to do to claim IVC as Pakistani in my comments,do that,I got no opposition.

        The land of Pakistan had existed since the birth of earth,right,but the problem is for the word “Pakistan” which is now a state which came into existence and reality only in 1947.

        In late Medieval times,European sailors made frantic effort to find any how the way of India,can you show me any Historical events,mentioning Pakistan?

        I again say since IVS was made by your fore fathers and is situated in present day Pakistan then accept all history of your fore fathers,it includes from IVC to Muslim attack,from Muslim attack to British.Accept all incidents including your fore fathers happy time(like IVC) and misfortune(like Muslim attack or British made famines).

        You got my point??Instead of calling me Hindu extremist answer this points.I made no offensive words to you.

        Pakistan was created in 1947.

  11. I adopted my nick as Waffen SS, simply because their uniform was very impressive and they were very tough soldiers. When tall and smart Germans wearing SS uniform marched, the picture was really impressive.

    I can’t understand why you Pak’s hate Waffen SS, they killed Jews. I hate holocaust. (Every man has the right to live peacefully), but you Pak’s hate Israel but I support Israel. (Jews like any other people have their right to live in their own country).

    When Waffen SS was an evil for the Jews, you Pak’ too are against the Jews then why hate the Waffen SS??!!

    There is old saying “Enemy’s enemy is my friend”.

    1. Your nick is Waffen SS not becoz of its impressive uniform or becoz SS soldiers were tough and smart, but it seems to me more becoz of your theory of rabid racism which is the hallmark of Hidutva extremists in India. You may not agree with this but there are many other such similar para military outfits that are smarter, tough and more impressive than the Waffen SS walas, but they won’t impress you becoz those others are not raised on rabid racism and therefore are not compatible with your dividing the humanity into different casts, races and social layers.

      Not only us but almost every sane individual in the world would disapprove SS Waffen psychology, their tactics and their philosophy, their open wich hunts against the Jews in Hitler’s Germany. I though am not able to vouch for the veracity of all what they say and write about Waffen SS, but this is what widely is reported in the history books relating to the WW-II.

      I do not think Muslims in Pakistan or elsewhere hate the jews per se. Factually speaking it were Muslims who offered them protection when whole of the Christian world mainly the Europeans, SEE
      “Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews During World War II”

      hated the Jews and confined them into urban jails, called Ghettos.

      But neither we do, nor many other people in the world including Muslims and those in the west hate the Jews. All of them do not like the anti Arab apartheid philosophy of Israel. If the racistic attitude of the Nazis is condemnable then anti Arab attitude of Israel should be as much condemmnabe as the Nazis. But the duplicity in your own thought and belief is evident when you condemn Nazis’ anti Jewish philosophy but don’t find yourself courageous enough to condemn the anti Arab philosophy of Israel???

      The venom in your mind speaks for itself when you say enemy’s enemy is your friend. We Pakistanis do not consider Bharat as our enemy.

      Differences we do have with your country but having differences does not mean that India is our enemy. Even the futility of wars that were fought between the two of us, are by passage of time throwing light on the Raison d’être of these wars which brings us all to conclude that the two neighbouring states of the subcontinent incurred more losses than gains from these wars.

      Neither we nor I think majority of the common people in India do think that “we are enemies” but the way you guys with Hindutva extremist mind rant about this ‘enemy’ sort of thing, am afraid one day both may indeed turn into ‘real enemies’ bringing this beautiful subcontinent into the the hell called nuclear holocaust.

      We who believe in Indo Pak Friendship, do not think extremist fulminations of some renegades on this side of the border or venomous spittings by Hindutva extremists on your side of the border are worth of a damn consideration to put the land, culture, people and beautiful flora and fauna of India and Pakistan to a total annihilation with this ‘enemy’ stance of yours.

      1. Where you got this word Hindutva(or it’s smell) in my comment?!If I point out history when Muslims persecuted Hindus then am I a Hindu extremist?If I point out Historical truths then how can I become Hindu extremists??
        You may dont know Buddhists were also persecuted by Hindus,in South India 1 Hindu king killed 7000 followers of Jainism one day,I dont support this,Shashank(first king of Bengal) demolished some Buddhist temples,I accept this,I am for truth.
        Persecution of any people is always condemnable.
        I am not talking about Indo-Pak friend ship,Muslims generally hate Israel.Pakistan,Iran are the enemy’s of Israel.

        Not only Muslims saved Jews in WW2,many Christians as well as even Germans who opposed Nazism,they also tried to help Jews.
        Dont forger Swedish diplomat Raul Walenburg.Again I am not talking about Indo-Pak.

        Enemy’s enemy is my friend I used to say,Pakistan’s enemy is Israel or Jews(as present world politics goes on),and Jew’s enemy was Waffen SS.

        Example-Iran President Ahmedinazade said Holocaust never happened,he used BS arguments of holocaust deniers.
        Holocaust denial is popular in Arab.

  12. In short again,claim IVC as Pakistani as it’s parts are situated in present Pakistan,and also claim Vedic civilization as Pakistani as part of it is also situated in present Pakistan.

    That’s what I wanted to say.

    The problem is here.And you dont want to claim Vedic as Pakistani though it’s parts are situated in Pakistani.

    So there are must be some reasons.Which I pointed out.That’s why debate is closed.LOL.

  13. i am pleased to announce the publication of my fifth research paper in a peer-reviewed journal

    this deals with the origin of Brahmi . this is a logical and self-explanatory paper and is written using a multi-disciplinary approach. it is written in such a way that anybody can cross-verify the conclusions.

    sujay rao mandavilli

  14. @Waffen SS, Although the blog editor has declared further discussion on subject as closed, I request the editor to plz, plz permit me put up my views also, especially becoz u hv raised certain points which need be answered. If I don’t answer to what you’ve said would mean all what you say is correct, WHICH, HOWEVER, IS NOT THE CASE!!!

    No body denies the Vedic Part of the Indus Valley Civilisation. Like the original IVC, which was unique and specific to that earliest part of human history, the latter periods like those of Vedic, Buddhist and finally Islamic ones, all are very much integral part of the IVC.
    Excepting the Mullah led uneducated mass, we believe in the Vedic Part too – which indeed was the birth place of Rig Veda, here in Pakistan; nobody denies and nobody can for these are historic realities. We are as much proud of our Vedic, our Buddhist past as we are of our Great Islamic Part.
    Hindutva is in your own mind my dear friend, which wants to impose upon us only the vedic part and this is the very insistence on every thing vedic associated with pure Hidutva minds that Quaid-e-Azam who was an apostle of Hindu Muslim unity (declared by eminent Hindu leaders of that period of Indo-Pak history) ultimately was forced to demand a separate state for Muslims of British controlled India.
    In the backdrop of your mind Mr. Waffen SS, it is the word Pakistan which pricks you. But why. If the name Hindostan does not prick us (as Hindostan or Hindustan though wrongly nomenclated as the land of the Hindus, whereas Hindostan is inhabited by many other religions and communities) then why not Pakistan. Your objection to Pakistan is only becoz a Hindutva mind never did recognise Muslims as an entity in 1947, they didn’t do it in the post partition period and neither they do it now.
    But Waffen SS, we damn care now whether you like Pakistan or not. We love our homeland and that is good enough for us.
    It appears you like so many other Hindutva extremists in India, have a phobia of Muslims. Yes Muslims did attack, but were there no other attackers, Portuguese, French and the British did it too, then why bracket it exclusively with the Muslims!!!

    If Hindus did not attack or expand, it was not because they were peaceful, but becoz they did not have the courage then to repulse the attacks. In the world of realism its always the survival of the fittest. When Muslims have the strength, the fitness both physically, mentally as well as militarily they had their full sway on the affairs of the subcontinental land a called Hindostan. Once Muslims too became lax, became weaker, again the universal principle of fittest’s survival ruled.
    We in Pakistan too are struggling but we are very confident of our strengths, (we know our weaknesses too) and therefore in spite of your ill will against us Pakistanis, we shall Insha Allah regain our Great Leap Forward). We know, our leaders are the lackeys of the US, yet the people of Pakistan know where do they stand and when and how can they come out of their present predicaments.
    You didn’t use the word Hindutva becoz no one with a Hindutva mentality would admit to be Hindutva. The word Hindutva is the creation of India’s own thinkers, intellectuals and media men. The Bhajpa group takes pride in Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan and these three H together form the whole concept of Hidutva.
    I don’t know abt how did the Christians, and Germans help the Jews in WWII. Even if they did, there is nothing special abt that. You urself say Muslims treat Jews as their enemies,. Then how come the Muslims treating their Jewish enemies as brothers saving them from the brutalities of the Nazis during the WWII.
    And finally my dear friend, u r making conflicting statements yourself. You call Waffen SS as the enemy of the Jews but in the same breath you take pride in Waffen SS, so much so that u even pick up their very name as your nick????
    You call all terrorists as Muslims, but the notorious Andre Breivik who massacred more than hundred innocent souls because of his barbaric thoughts, the source of which he proudly said was derived from Hindutva thinkers. But Andre Breivik would never be named a Christian terrorist nor the saffron killers of Muslims in India ever as Hindu terrorists????

  15. @Waffen SS

    The broad classification of Vedic literature tends to underline two different facets; Rig Veda based early Vedic literature and Atharva Veda, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanishadas based later Vedic literature. However, it also reveals a protracted cultural growth which can be identified through use of Sanskrit, societal varna system, monotheistic and polytheistic rituals including yajnas, animal sacrifices and cremation of the dead etc.

    From the archeological evidence it becomes clearly evident that Vedic literature based cultural traditions are better identified with Post Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) cultural traditions. Let me highlight some of the more pronounced facts in this regard:

    • The formation of IVC’s cultural entities can be identified between 3000-1300 BC. Contrarily, the Historians identify formulation of Vedic traditions between 1500-600 BC.

    • The IVC’s culture was identified in the Indus Valley, Ghaggar-Hakra basin and in the Doab. These cultural moorings however do not find an extension into central and lower Gangese Valley in eastern and central Indian plains. Contrarily, the traditions abound in Vedic culture extends all over Pakistan and northern India.

    • The decline of IVC traditions started declining after 2000 BC and little of it was identified around 1300 BC. However, the Vedic traditions sustained its development even to the early historic era (Joe’s pre, proto and history duly accounted) and shaped into a state-based urban civilization period.

    • The Vedic cultural tradition do gel with the chiefdom -based Post-Indus cultures as they also use rice, horse and iron etc. However, it also displays a distinct difference with the IVC for the absence of fortified cities, town planning and drainage, monumental art and architecture of burnt bricks, advanced specialization and sea trade, use of seals, weights, measures and script and the custom of burying the dead in cemeteries.

    • An attempt aimed at presenting a distorted version of history through identification of fire places as fire -altars, waste pits as sacrificial pits in Harappan era sites and the imaginary reading of Sanskrit legends on Indus seals is nothing but clear fabrication of historical and archeological evidence. Such falsehood was presented in the manner because the presenters believed that India is a Hindu nation and has Hindu culture in continuity from Vedic Aryans and they themselves wanted to see it that way, which however is not supported by evidence.

    Based on the above clearly identifiable differences, I have stated earlier and claim that Pakistan is the scion of and holder of the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization and not India.

    Yes the people of this land later on were Hindus, Buddhists and are now Muslim. And the land is now known as Pakistan – earlier it was known as Malluha. What is it that irks you – the land being called Pakistan and the original people of this land are now Muslims.

  16. Is not this debate already closed, still going on?! as dear blog administrator said.

    I never called all Muslims as terrorists, my above comments said what I have to speak clearly. Please read my comments.

    Prophet Muhammad said-Killing a man is the same as killing of entire mankind, saving a man is same as saving entire mankind. I have no Islamophobia.

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